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Noah

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Climate Change (& friendly debate)

Climate change. Does it happen? Of course! Is it man-made? The news will tell you the science is settled. Now right off the bat that phrase should concern you. If science is settled, it’s not science. “Settled science” is anti-science as it disuades further study. Actual science welcomes new ideas and debate.

In my studies I quickly learned that when the news media reports a science story they normally quote mine for a juicy quote that will create clicks. (Click bait). The quote is normally part of the story, but when I would go to read the actual study or article the news report was based on I would find that the results did not infer the attention grabbing headline. Sometimes the complete opposite.

You see news sells through controversy. If they can get a heated debate going in the comments, thats a LOT of clicks. AND since news sells science, studies that report controversy get more funding. If you see anything or anyone saying “science has proven…”, ask for your money back. Science doesn’t prove anything. Science disproves or rules out possibilities to make the hypothesis more likely.

Climate change occurs, but the actual science as to what causes it (if you read it) is incredibly mixed and far from any consensus. Then you have to consider the political agenda. Fear sells in Democratic politics. We need bigger government to protect us from ourselves. There’s always an angle. Follow the money.

Does man cause climate change? You could possibly say that. Man rebelled against God. God sent a massive flood which enacted all weather calamities to follow. Every weather event today can trace its roots back to the flood. Does that mean God is punishing people for their sins today through hurricanes? No. It means we live in a world where hurricanes happen because we live in a broken world in need of a savior.

Do we need to take care of our planet? Absolutely! But God has already told us how it all ends, and it’s not from man made climate change. Do not buy into the fear.

 

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The following is an exchange I had with someone on Facebook after I posted this to my personal profile.  Their comments are in bold.

 

Sooo because God is going to end the world and not climate change (even though lots of people die in God’s ending… Earthquakes that shake the entire planet and all) We should take care of our planet but not believe we did it because skepticism. 

I am a scientist. My work, my life is based on the physical universe God made. Did man contribute to climate change in a way that has heated the oceans and melted glaciers? Yes. That is something that science has in fact lead towards the most likely possibility. Has the planet been getting “better” since we as humans have been fighting our man-made contribution to climate change? Yes!! Check out the story of refrigerants we used to use that were messing up the molecular make-up of our atmosphere.

Does this post spur humans to act because of their mistakes? No. As much as the news bugs me because I read the studies not just listen/watch the news. Their panic sells, but also their panic that they have whipped the public into has done good things. It has informed the public/senators to do something about it. Which is a main contribution to “green” energy. Does money change the hearts and minds of politicians? Yes. It is always some seedy organisation looking to just get rich? Not always. Also if you can make money on making the planet a better place that is the whole point right. Using our natural resources costs something. It is not free. We should use our economy to save our planet. We should use our political system to help fix the molecular make up of the atmosphere when we send it out of whack with our economy and policies. 

Politics and economics are not bad things in themselves. Try not to demonize them when we talk about solutions to real problems.

 

I’m against the fear mongering that’s all. I’m for truth. First truth says we are not the cause of the demise of this planet. We may have done some things that have hurt the environment and we should work to fix those when we learn of them as much as possible. You say fear produces action and so is justified. I think it produces fake or short lived action. I believe truth produces the most actions. When someone believes something undoubtedly, they will stop at nothing. But…if you don’t have enough truth, fear can be a helpful seller. Again, we need a bigger government to protect us from our stupidity…and we’ll pay them more to do it to.

Just as there are studies you can cite showing man made climate change, there are studies I can cite showing the opposite. Study bashing is boring and doesn’t prove or do anything. But how can there be studies that show opposites. You know it happens all the time, right? My theory is human bias.

 

 I have read studies on both sides, but I also know it is not just throwing studies back and forth it is the overwhelming evidence that leads to the conclusion humans have unequivocally been a leading contribution to climate change. Did we do it alone? No. Did we do a large percentage of it? Yes. I have a deep rooted belief in our flaws as humans. Scientists believe the truth of their study. Humans on the other hand most often have apathy for the situation unless you can prove how it harms them individually because we are selfish creatures. So your belief in the goodness of man to fix their wrong when pointed out to them in my life has been proved to be wrong. Your faith in humanity is wasted. We suck. We don’t care. We would party into our own destruction. It is the job of those that fight for truth to be applied to these apathetic humans. The only way to get an apathetic human to do anything is by fear.

I am against fear mongering as well, but I am not the only fighter. I fight for local changes. I am not a national fighter as much as I disagree with their practices. They get results. Solar credits have not only made solar competitive, but it has driven down costs of manufacturing and dropped money in the market to make it profitable without credits. So in that case a short term solution lead to a long term solution.

Also I never said if fear produces action it is justified. I said I don’t have an issue with it because I am down here fighting to fix our planet from apathetic jerks. I am too busy to fix the fear that media makes money off of. I would rather solve real problems like people losing their homes on the coast due to ocean waters increasing in temperature and height.
If you have an army of undoubting believers you can do amazing things, but just like Christianity has Christians who are apathetic to their community and only care about their personal salvation. You are never gonna find that.

Your human bias of studies is white washed out of meta studies of climate change studies that agree HUMANS ARE A LEADING CONTRIBUTION TO CLIMATE CHANGE. Meta studies are a study of all the studies. They collect all the data and come their own conclusion with all the data and it is that conclusion.

 

I always take issue with studies and conclusions based on extrapolations. Even if man is contributing now, it requires extrapolations to come to the conclusion that it will severely harm the environment. I understand the logic of that, but reality infers that so many unknowns factors can majorly change the conclusion.

For example, the age of the Earth is calculated using extrapolations. Rocks decay at a given rate today, using that rate and extrapolating into the past we get an age of 4.5 billion years. But that extrapolation ignores any Biblical possiblities that God intervened in the process and/or created things in an aged state necessary for the immediate sustaining of life. Studies that extrapolate make sense logically, but they don’t necessarily equal truth.

 

Yeah your interpretation of the Bible and how God could have interacted with the physical world is not something we agree on so I don’t think it is a good point to work off of. 
I believe the Bible. I believe God created the cosmos. I also believe thata new earth creationism doesn’t make sense to what the world around us tells us. God’s world. Words can be interpreted in many different ways, but scientific constants and laws of the universe can’t really be interpreted any other way. I choose to bend language and explode my imagination and God’s power rather than limiting humans understanding of the universe God made. God is crazy awesome. I believe he is capable of interacting in our world without it having to go against what we have observed in his physical universe.

After all it says God created the universe and everything in it. Next big event garden stuff

Not God created the universe then changed the constants of his universe so some sticklers to my word that only wish to read the stories literally can age out the world.

 

What it says is God created in six days, made Adam on the sixth day, then gives a 4000 year geneology from Adam to Jesus who lived 2000 years ago. To come to any other conclusion is to force your own interpretation onto the text. I do not believe there is a single piece of evidence against a young earth perspective. Of course their are faulty interpretations based on extrapolations that ignore the Bible as a historical record.

That’s my point. You can ignore certain evidences and make extrapolations to give you conclusions that may not be true. I believe that happens with the age of the Earth looking backwards and climate change looking forwards.

 

I don’t think Genesis is meant to be literal history. That is our different perspectives. I think it is a story we can learn from. I have never thought we should take it literally because it doesn’t make sense literally. I believe God meant to make sense not to change. He is immutable.

 I am not ignoring the genealogy when I take it as a story, it just doesn’t mean as much to me as it does to you.

 

You don’t think Genesis is meant to be taken as literal history because of your preexisting belief in an old earth and evolution. You recognize the two are telling different stories and you side with consensus science despite the continual warnings in the scripture about siding with man. I’m not anti science, I’m pro truth and that requires looking at all angles. If you interpret the evidence in the world using Genesis as your hypothesis, then it all lines up. There is no need to interpret it as allegory.

 

how do you know with 100% certainty you are not forcing a perspective on the text that is just not there. Like what if God’s day in Genesis is not our day? A day is a revolution around the sun, but the sun had not been created yet so you are forcing a definition that had not been defined yet.

If Genesis is allegory it still lines up with science. There is no conflict. I didn’t have to change any definitions. I just read the text and looked at the world and made sense of it.

 

A day is not a revolution around the sun, it is a spinning on its own axis. A sun is not required.

 

Sorry let me correct myself. How can you have a day a revolution without a starting point? The sun

 

I can spin a ball without another ball in the room.

 

Yes but a spin is marked by a beginning and end which is the sun. If you just spin with no reference there is no start or stop. Without a reference point a day without the sun could be 10,000 years.

 
Also let’s poke holes in Noah for a sec. A boat with a buoyancy described in the Bible could not take the weight of the animals also described in the Bible. This math has been done. So unless God intervened which is not directly mentioned it is not possible. Therefore allegory to destruction with water.

 
I take God as he states with the logic he has given me. He gave me science and other humans to work out his wonders. I can read biologists work and marvel at God and his works. I can read work on geologists and marvel at the system that protects the squishy humans that live on this planet. I take their work and marvel at God’s work rather than scoffing at the ingenuity of their discoveries because it doesn’t match my narrow minded view of God that I got from a word that has been translated out of its original culture and language.

 
I am pro truth. I am pro God and his works in the world. The problem I have with your skepticism is it bashes the beauty that is God’s world and natural revelation. You can find God in two ways. Thru the Bible and thru his creation. By using only the Bible all those people that have never heard the word get to be condemned. Rather than opening up to the possibility God can work outside of his Word in the physical universe he created.
As for the spinning thing, you might have a point there – but you also have to take into account that the first thing God created was a light source (not the Sun). If we compare that to other scriptures about God being a light, we can assume this light came directly from him. So yes, the Earth had a light source to use to calculate a day.

As for the Ark, I’ve not actually heard this claim before. How many animals are the supposing was on the Ark? The normal claim I hear is between 1-2000 with the Ark being capable of holding close to 100,000. I know of another feasibility study (done by a secular university) that showed the Ark would have worked.

I don’t want you to get the assumption that because I am a creationist I am missing out on the wonders of science. To me, becoming a creationist opened up science to an amazing degree I never thought possible. Now it has meaning and purpose behind it, instead of mindless and accidental. I’m glad you find wonder in science. I would never want that to change. I believe we are to study the earth and figure out more things about how it works, but not to trump God’s definitive word on the matter. His word is the ultimate authority and the final say on all matters.

Here’s the biggest issue with evolutionary science. If it is true, then God created cancer and called it “very good”. If the 4.5 billion years of creation has to be fit into the creation week of Genesis allegorically, then so does all the history of pain, disease, suffering, and death. Then after the creation, God calls it all “very good”. If you go with my understanding, God does create a world “very good”, free of pain and suffering. Man brings those things into the creation. So the big question is: is God to blame for creating the world this way, or did we mess it up? If you believe in evolution, you have no choice but to blame God. BUT this goes against so much of his character and invalidates so many passages.

I do not mind entertaining other interpretations, but if they create contradictions with later passages – that is where I draw the line. God’s word can’t have contradictions or it is no longer God’s word. God’s word calls death an enemy. So is it an enemy or part of the process of creation and “very good”? Which is it?

END OF CONVERSATION
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Dinosaurs and the Bible

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On Sunday, May 17th, 2015 Grace With Salt founder Tim Gilleand debuted his newest apologetics presentation called DINOSAURS AND THE BIBLE!

WATCH THE VIDEO PRESENTATION or read the illustrated transcript below…

 

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Is the Bible really our source of truth in EVERY matter?  My pastor has stood up on several occasions and taught us all about applying scripture first to every area of thinking.  But do we really do that?  Sure, when we have feeble, opinionated discussions with friends or family – maybe we do.  What about when we read something online?  Well, sure – that would work.  What about if we read it in a science textbook?  Ah… uhuh, this is when it gets a little harder for some of us.

We like to trust the authorities when we don’t know as much in that area.  Makes sense.  But what if we have a higher authority?  Let me give you an example.

You know the word “prehistoric”?  You know what that means?  It means ‘before recorded history’.  So prehistoric is the time before historical records.  But…  what if we have a recorded history that goes all the way back to the beginning of creation?  Is there such a thing as prehistoric anymore??  Is this really our source of truth in EVERY matter?

Think on that as we move forward here.

Dinosaurs!  Awesome.  C’mon, who didn’t love dinos as a kid?  I still love ‘em!  They are fascinating.  But today’s talk is called “Dinosaurs and the Bible”… the first thing you may be wondering is if the Bible even talks about dinosaurs.  Well, a quick internet search will show NO results for the word ‘dinosaur’ in the Bible.  Case closed?  No way.

The word ‘dinosaur’ was invented by Dr. Richard Owen in 1841.  The King James Bible was published in 1611, over 200 years earlier.  Of course the word ‘dinosaur’ is not in the Bible.  So… is there a word that IS used in the King James?  There is.

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The word ‘dragon’ is used over 20 times in the Old Testament alone.  What’s a dragon?  A large, reptilian beast.  What’s a dinosaur?  A large, reptilian beast.

Wait, wait, wait!  TIM – are you trying to say that dragons were real???  Kinda.  I think we have to get the modern day imagery of dragons out of mind.  Today they are things of legend that fly around and breathe fire.  I think if you look deep enough all legends are based in some truth.  The Bible is obviously referencing something – some large, menacing, reptilian monsters.  So – what else do we know of that they could be??  Dinosaurs seem to match that description best.

Take a look at this picture I took of a dinosaur at the Children’s Museum in Indianapolis…

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It’s official name is Dracorex Hogwartsia because of its resemblance to a dragon.

There are dragon legends all over the world, in every culture.   Coincidence?  Or based in real history?

Nehemiah 2:13 states: “And I went out by night by the gate of the valley, even before the dragon well… and viewed the walls of Jerusalem”.

Psalm 91:11 says: “For he shall give his angels charge over thee… You shall tread upon the lion and adder, the young lion and the dragon shall you trample under foot”.

Jeremiah 51:37 – “And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwelling place for dragons…”

Malachi 1:3 says “I hated Esau and laid his mountains and his heritage for the dragons of the wilderness”.

Notice one thing very interesting in these passages… they are mentioning real people, real places, and real things!  These are not poetic, or metaphoric.  They are placed in real history.  According to the Bible, dragons ARE real.   Is the Bible really our source of truth in EVERY matter?

We’ve uncovered one more VERY important detail in understanding that dinosaurs are in the Bible… did you catch it?  Dinosaurs lived among us, at the same time.  That’s not something you’ll read in any of these kids’ books… or in your science textbooks.  Now your faith’s being tested.

Now, I’m not a fan of blind faith – so let me give you some more reasons to believe.

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You know what that is?  That is red blood cells and soft tissue.  Do you know where it was found?  In a T-rex leg bone!  Why is this incredible?  Because we know that these elements do not survive more than 100,000 years.  So… back to the kids’ books… millions of years??  I don’t think so.

So, why haven’t you heard of this?  Why hasn’t this changed everything?  Because when the “science is settled” you don’t change it – you change the evidence.  Instead of revising their timeline, the official answer thus far is that ‘apparently these things can last longer than we thought’.  The problem with that answer though is that it’s not just ‘what we thought’ about how fast things decompose… we know, we can test, and we have, and we KNOW it cannot last even 1 million years – let alone 65 million.  Some of the soft tissue finds have been in dinosaurs that were supposedly 250 million years old!!  Which is more likely… that the soft tissue miraculously stayed around beyond what experiments prove… or that dinosaurs have been around more recently than we thought.

That leads us to this….how old is the earth?  Is the Bible really our source of truth in EVERY matter?  If it is… then we know.  According to the Bible the world was created in six days with man created on the sixth day.  We know that Adam lived 930 years.

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We also know how long most of the other main characters of the Bible lived.  We have an extremely well documented history laid out in the Bible.  So and so begat so and so, and so on…  We know it was about 2000 years from creation to the flood, 2000 years from the flood to Jesus, and it’s been 2000 years since Jesus.  According to the Bible, our world is about 6000 years old.

But what about all the evidence that says it is much older?  Again, I’m not for blind faith… even though the Bible is enough – that response is not enough for those who might challenge our faith.  Many, many people have walked away from their faith for lack of real answers to tough questions.  This is one of those, so let me give it a shot.

When most scientists work on questions of how old our planet is they are not taking into account the Bible as an actual source of historical information.  It’s left out of the equation.  When they study the earth they take the processes they observe today and use those rates to estimate or judge the age of things.  They see things changing at a very slow, gradual, and constant rate and ASSUME that has been the case since the beginning.  So when they do extrapolations they come up with billions of years.  It makes logical sense.  If things have only been changing gradually and uniformly, then it would take billions of years to get to where we are today.

But what if the assumption of gradualism and this idea of constant rates are wrong?  Well, that would change everything!  The Bible outlines * three historical events, that if true – would seriously disrupt their assumptions.

The first is a rapid, 6-day creation.  If everything literally popped into existence mid-life cycle – wouldn’t that mess up our attempts to date things?  Think about it.  Let’s say Adam was a 30 year old adult when he was created.  If you didn’t know he was just created yesterday and you attempted to describe how old he was on the 7th day… how old do you think we’d call him?  Yea, probably 30-something.  But technically he’d only be 1 day old!  Now apply that concept to ALL of creation.  Rocks, trees, bodies of water – all fully mature, not gradually forming but would if viewed a certain way show ‘signs of age’.

That’s enough right there.  But we got two more Biblical events that could affect this.  What about the curse following the first sin?  God changes many things in the world.  Pains in childbirth, the ground now produces thorns and thistles.  Did you know that thorns show up in the fossil record?  The fossil record was supposedly formed millions of years before man even came on the scene.  How can that be if thorns are the result of man’s sin?  Think on that one.  But the point here is that the world changed radically at this point in history… so it would be wrong to extrapolate today’s processes to judge that time in the past.  We’d get it wrong.

The final Biblical event that would affect our chronology is the flood.  The flood radically altered the face of our planet.  Last year we covered this in detail.  The fossil graveyard, polar ice caps, plate tectonics, the ice age, volcanic and seismic activity.  Overall, again the world was changed drastically and very rapidly vs. the slow processes we see happening today.  Some see the Grand Canyon and see a little bit of water over a long period of time.  I see the same canyon and say a lot of water over a little period of time.

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Three Biblical events: the creation, the fall, and the flood – that if historically accurate disrupt a purely gradual, constant rate of change that we observe today.  Christians who accept the Bible as the word of God and their authority in ALL matters, have no reason to agree with the consensus on the age of the earth.

But beyond the reasons to disagree with old-earth conclusions, do we have evidence of a young-earth outside the Biblical account?  Of course we do.  Salt in the oceans.  Did you know that each year more salt goes into the oceans than comes out of it.  It’s been studied and we know the ratio.  The problem is if the world is truly billions of years old, then the oceans should be salted salt… but if the earth was young, then the salt concentrate would be about what it is today.

Did you also know that the moon is receding away from the earth a little bit more each year?  Well, again – if the world was billions of years old, then just a million years ago the moon would have been touching the earth.  That’s a problem!  There are tons of these examples I wish I had more time to go into… but we gotta get back to dinosaurs!

The evidence and the scriptures are aligning.  Dinosaurs have lived among us.  But this raises many more questions.  Those questions can all be addressed in what is called The Seven F’s.  I’m gonna fly thru these rather quickly so hold on…

*  The first F is “F O R M E D”

When were dinosaurs created?  Well the majority of what we think of as dinosaurs are land, dwelling animals.  Those were created on day six of creation.  Coincidentally, the same day we were made.  There is no other place in scripture that allows for dinosaurs to be created any other time.

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Take a look at these footprints of dinosaurs and humans together.  Bet ya never seen those in science class before!

*  The second F is “F E A R L E S S”

Was there ever a time where dinosaurs were not the mean, nasty, feared beasts they are today?  Of course!  In the beginning, before the first sin (which was probably not long)… the animals were all vegetarian.  Genesis 1: 30 says  “and to the beasts of the earth… everything that has the breath of life in it – I give every green plant for food”.

But they’re so mean looking, with the huge carnivorous teeth!  Am I supposed to believe those huge teeth ate leaves?  Take a look at the Hippo.  Plant-eater.

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How about the gorilla.  Veggie eater.  Or a vegetarian species of piranhas.  Big, sharp teeth does not equal meat-eater.  In the original creation the lion could lay down with the lamb… and our hope is to be returned to that perfection.  But it is not how it is now.

*  The third F is “F A L L E N”

The whole world changed following original sin.  A door was opened thru which things that were never intended to plague our world came flying in.  We now all suffer, have pain, and eventually die.  Carnivory begins.  But Tim, how could we live in a world with dinosaurs?  Probably just the same way we live in a world with lions.  We keep our distance.

*  The fourth F is “F L O O D”

Did the dinosaurs survive the flood?  More than likely they did.  Job chapter 40 and 41 (which happened way after the flood) both talk about great beasts that match the descriptions of dinosaurs and dragons… take a look…

Job 40: 15-19 –
Look at Behomth, which I made along with you… what strength it has in its loin, what power in the muscles of its belly!  Its tail sways like a cedar… Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron.  It ranks first among the works of God.”

Notice it says “which I made along with you”.  If this is describing a mythical creature, then that makes US a mythical creature.  Look at the rest of the descriptions… “tail sways like a cedar”, “ranks first among the works of God”… hows this look to you?

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Some Bible scholars like to call Behemoth an elephant.  Well, let’s examine that… “tail like a cedar”

I don’t think so.

How about Job 41?
Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook or tie down its tongue with a rope… If you lay a hand on it, you will remember the struggle and never do it again… I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs, its strength and its graceful form… who dares open the doors of its mouth, ringed about with fearsome teeth…Its snorting throws out flashes of light… flames stream from its mouth, sparks of fire shoot out.  Smoke pours from its nostrils…”

And it goes on and on, the whole chapter.  But is it possible that the fire-breathing part of dragon legends could also be based in some truth?

The Bombadeer Beetle shoots a fire-like, smoking substance out as a defense mechanism.  There are some who have thought that several dinosaur skulls seem to include chambers that could create similar results.

The point is the Bible makes mention of massive beasts after the flood.  Many dragon legends all over the world go into the 14th century AD.  You probably know Beowulf.  How about Marco Polo, he said this…

“Here are found…huge serpents, ten paces in length… two short legs, each with three claws…the jaws are wide enough to swallow a man, the teeth are large and sharp, and their whole appearance is so formidable that neither man, nor any kind of animal can approach them without terror”.

Check out this picture of architecture of a Cambodian temple from the 1100’s.  I don’t know about you, but that looks like a stegosaurus to me.

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Check out this picture of a cave drawings in the Western U.S. from hundreds of years ago before we classified dinosaurs.  They sure seem to have seen something.

Check out this picture of one of a collection of 30,000 clay figurines unearthed in Mexico, again found much earlier than the discovery of dinosaurs by scientists.  So, what did they see?

There is much evidence that humans have seen and interacted with dinosaurs long before we dug them out of the ground.

The fifth F is “F A D E D”

You could also call this F “forgotten”.  This is where we answer the age-old question… ‘what happened to the dinosaurs’.  In advertising for this event, I promised that the answer to that question would leave you speechless… let’s see if I can live up to the hype!

Was it a meteor from space, was it some poison gas, was it aliens??  What was it?  Scientists have pondered over this question for hundreds of years!  It seems like every year, there’s a different answer.  Well, let’s settle this once and for all.  What happened to the dinosaurs??  You ready???

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That’s right… they died.  Over 1000 species of animals go extinct each and every year.  Why do we need a big, extravagant answer when the answer is staring us in the face?  On top of that, many of the dragon legends around the world tell us stories about hunting them down.  Perhaps we played a role in their extinction.  We killed em off!  They died.

The sixth F is “F O U N D”

In the 1800’s scientists began unearthing the fossils of dinosaurs.  This is the exact same timeframe when these same scientists were starting to theorize about the age of the earth and evolution.  Dinosaurs fit their models perfectly.

Or do they?  Most museums push an evolutionary view of dinosaurs ALL over the place.  We recently went to the Children’s Museum in Indianapolis and I was shocked to barely see any mentions of millions of years or evolution.  I had to seek it out to find it!  That was awesome.  On top of that, my son and I were looking at the dinosaurs and I had to do a double take.  I looked a little closer, then got his attention.  I said “is that skin?”  There was this big patch around the rib cage.  Even though I don’t believe dinosaurs lived that long ago, I was still surprised to see what I thought I was seeing!  Then we go around the corner and there is a whole display called “Leonardo, the mummified dinosaur” – and there was tons of skin and scales still showing up.  It was fascinating.  And I give the museum credit for not pushing an agenda, but just presenting the evidence.

The seventh and final F is “F I C T I O N”

This is the state most of the world lives in now regarding dinosaurs.  Dinosaurs turned into birds, right?  Well, the Bible says birds came on day 5 and land animals on day 6 – so tell me how that works.  Is the Bible really our source of truth in EVERY matter?


JURASSIC WORLD
In the summer of 2015, Hollywood releases its next big blockbuster, the fourth part in the Jurassic Park series called “Jurassic World”.

True enough, just as the other movies – this one will be chock full of references to millions of years and evolution… will I still see it?  SURE!  It will be fun.  But as a Christian I know that I need to reinterpret what I see and hear.  I need to filter everything through my only source of absolute truth – the word of God.  I also find it ironic that the draw to movies like this is to see humans and dinosaurs coexisting.  Enjoy the movie… but remember that it is science fiction.

ENDING  (why does this matter)

So, to wrap this up.. we need to talk for a couple minutes on why all this is important.  Does it really matter if you believe dinosaurs existed millions of years ago, or if you believe our planet is billions of years old?  I think it matters, but let me be clear that it is not an issue of salvation.  In other words – you’re not going to hell if you decide against everything I said today.  90% of what you hear from this pulpit is going to be about salvation, the gospel… but sometimes there are some of us who crave more for our faith.  Salvation is 100% necessary, it’s foundational, and why it is such a major topic covered in church, but some of us need more.  Some of us know that even with our salvation, our faith will get questioned.  We will have our doubts.  And many of us are simply not prepared to answer those questions.  That is why I do what I do.  To build us up… from what may be a blind faith, to an informed faith.

If you don’t accept what I say today, you are no less my brother or sister in Christ.  I may feel your testimony is inconsistent and contradictory – but that is between you and the Lord.  Everyone is at a different level, and that’s okay.  I am just here to challenge you to make the Bible more and more authoritative in your life.  And this is one way in which you can do that.  This book is trustworthy from the first word to the last.  That is part of my hope and my strength.  It is rooted in faith, but also in reason.  It is rooted in belief, but also in evidence.
We’ve lost the amazing creatures that were the dinosaurs.  I know my kids look forward to paradise being restored in Heaven.  They’d love to ride a dinosaur!  I hope that happens too.

Slide35

Debate 1: atheism vs. young-earth creation

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gracewithsalt.com ‘s Tim discusses various topics of Christianity with the atheist (or agnostic) known as xxrr23 (youtube.com/user/xxrr23).

This was done originally as a Google Hangout but the video was not captured.  Audio was captured on both ends and edited together later to make the best possible audio.  That is why you still hear some background noises.  Next time we will try and do a full video Google Hangout to watch.  We certainly didn’t do this as a formal debate, but more of an open discussion.  Therefore topics jump around a bit.

Check out below for the various topics:

0:00 Introductions

03:49 Discussion of xxrr23’s video: “RE: Proof of God in 3 Easy Steps”
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP2TDpvNBcI)

18:48 Discussion of InspiringPhilosopy’s video: “Why no one believe in naturalism/atheism”
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4QFsKevTXs)

31:09 Intro to young-earth creation

34:43 Starting assumptions

48:07 Why is creationism important

1:04:09 Incest and de-evolution

1:07:06 The world according to the Hebrews

1:09:29 Why is Genesis not compatible with evolution

1:14:57 Tree rings

1:28:40 Geology

1:37:45 Interpretations

1:56:30 more on tree rings

2:06:35 Ending

For more information: www.gracewithsalt.com or youtube.com/user/xxrr23.

Subscribe for more, or watch Tim’s full defense of the flood here:

NOAH: Defense of the Flood & why it is important (VIDEO)

Tim Gilleand of Grace with Salt (www.gracewithsalt.com) presents a water-tight case for the Biblical flood.  Answering several skeptical questions, showing the evidence, and presenting in an engaging format rich with multimedia – this presentation is likely to bolster your faith.  This is a video production of the post here.  The following is a complete video reproduction of the presentation complete with all slides and multimedia.

 

Defense of the flood & why it is important

noah-poster-lead-photo

WHAT’S AN ARK??

scripture

 

 

Defense of the Flood & why it is important 

 Did the flood really happen or is it myth?

 Obviously we are here today to defend the Biblical flood.  I’ve debated atheists for years now, and they constantly use unbelievable events like the flood to “prove” to themselves that there is no way the Bible is a trustworthy source.

* Did you know the Bible actually tells us to be able to give a defense for the hope that we have?    (1 Peter 3:15).  Salvation is a crucial step in a believer’s journey but it is NOT the end goal.  I hope, by the end of this message, to help you gain more of an informed faith.

The Noah story is gaining a lot of attention in today’s media thanks to the big-budget Hollywood movie coming out this Friday.  We’ll look at that a little later, but the topic is becoming more and more of a water-cooler topic.  How awesome would it be to be able to offer answers to some of those common objections about the flood!

People want the story to be a myth, because if it is reality that means God has the ability to judge his creation at any time.  That scares people.  But on the other hand, if the story is true – then we can trust the word of God, which means we can trust the gospel, the good news, that comes from the same source.  Yes, sometimes you have to endure the bad news to get to the good news.  Let’s jump into it…

 

how

The first thing we need to catch from the excerpts we read is Genesis chapter 7 verse 11 that tells us that when the flood started “the fountains of the great deep burst forth”.

You see, the flood was not just rain for 40 days and 40 nights as we often times hear!  What are the fountains of the great deep?  Well, Christian scientists theorize that this is a reference to the onset of plate tectonics.

All scientists agree that at one point all the continents were together and at some point in the past they broke apart.  The Bible confirms that the earth was split and water gushed up from underground during the flood.  It also rained.

plates

The waters increased for 40 days and 40 nights and then held for 150 days!  The flood was not a mere month and a half!  These guys were encased at sea for over a year by the time the dry land appeared!  This was the most massive event in the history of the world.  Do you remember from science class what plate tectonics actually do?  It initiates earthquakes, volcanoes, and tsunamis… all over the world at the same time!  Can you imagine??  Whew!!

The waters rose to about 22 feet above the highest mountain.  Now, does that mean 22 feet above Mt. Everest?  Nope.  Mt Everest would likely not have been 29,000 feet when the flood began.  If there were no plate tectonics pushing continents around before the flood, mountain ranges would not have been as tall.  People who object to the flood often cite there not being enough water to cover the tallest mountains, and they are right if they are assuming the mountains as tall then as now – but we wouldn’t assume that.

Opponents of the flood like to say that maybe the flood was a local flood just to a certain region.  But we just pointed out that the Bible says the waters rose to 22 feet above the highest mountains…

local

That explanation makes NO sense.  In fact, if it was just a local flood – why didn’t Noah just pack up his family and the animals and hike to another part of the world instead of spending 100 years building an Ark?  The Bible says ALL creatures with the breath of life were wiped out…. not some.  The entire story of the flood collapses upon itself when you believe it was a local flood.

The point is the flood was a massive, devastating, year-long, global, catastrophic event that forever altered the face of the planet.

 

evidence

 

Now obviously we can’t just thumb our nose at our opponents and blindly accept the global flood and ignore what others say about it.  Although I would never downplay the importance of faith, if the flood was a real historical event of the magnitude the Bible suggests then we should certainly find evidence for it, right??

If the flood destroyed an enormous amount of life on the planet in one sweeping go, wouldn’t we expect to find a massive graveyard?  Perhaps we might expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the world.  You know what we find – billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the world!

The fossil record is that massive graveyard!  Fossils show signs of rapid burial.  If you leave a dead carcass out, what happens to it?  Yeah, it decays – dead things don’t fossilize.  Fossilization, like what happened to this trilobite, occurs rapidly with little to no warning.  You have to get buried quickly and cut off from oxygen.  Even secular scientists agree that nearly all fossils are formed in flood conditions!  Did you know that?  This stuff is really exciting to me!

I remember visiting the Grand Canyon about 13 years ago, and immediately looking at it and thinking: “this was the flood!”

canyon

Mainstream science tries to paint a picture that a little bit of water (the Colorado River) cut that canyon over a long period of time.  I say it was a lot of water over a little amount of time!  Neither of us was there to observe it, so science can’t prove it either way – it does come down to faith in the end.

Some scientists use the order in the fossil record to dispute the concept of the flood.  They say if it was one big flood the fossils should be all mixed together, not neatly organized the way they are.  Well, we concede that there certainly IS an order to the fossil record, but we disagree that it shows how life evolved over long periods of time.  We see the order more like what we would expect to find given slowly rising flood waters.  We would expect more simple creatures to get buried first, and the more complex creatures to outlast the rising waters.  Above and beyond that there is a science experiment you can do called hydrologic sorting – you’ve probably done a version of it before – when you mix certain elements together, water has a built in sorting function.

sedpre

We’d say the order in the fossil record is the order of burial during the flood year and the layers were carved out as the waters receded slowly.  We know canyons with multiple layers can be carved out quickly because we watched it happen after the explosion of Mt. St. Helens.

canyons

Many scientists believe the rock layers took millions of years to form because they observe them forming slowly today, but they do not take into account the possibility of a major, worldwide catastrophe.

How about a few more evidences?

How about the fact that the world is STILL 2/3 water!  Do you know that most scientists believe there was a worldwide flood on Mars – where there’s no trace of water today, BUT can’t believe this world was covered in water?!

How about polar ice caps?

How about plate tectonics?

Did you know we find marine fossils on tops of mountains??  How’s that work?  Perhaps those mountain tops were once covered in water.

How about the ice age?

Would a global flood predict an ice age?  You bet it would.  If there was volcanic activity all over the earth, what do you presume that would do to the atmosphere?  When one volcano goes off the ash is registered hundreds of miles away!  If we have basically every volcano going off we would expect a massive ash cloud blotting out the sun’s rays for a very long time following the flood… which would lead to colder temperatures.  Voila, an ice age.  And we can theorize this a bit further out.  Perhaps these cold temps cause people to seek refuge in caves – we could call these people cavemen.  Perhaps their bodily features even adapted to the new environment, and we have Neanderthals!

Did you know that nearly every culture on earth has a flood legend?  Yep!  Now they differ on some of the details, but most of them talk about a big boat that saved man and animals to escape destruction by water!  How incredible is that.

floodlegends

Let’s recap!  Fossils, the order in the fossil record, the rock layers, canyons, mountains, valleys, plate tectonics, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, polar ice caps, marine fossils on tops of mountains, the ice age, Neanderthals, flood legends all over the world, and on and on!!

Literally everywhere you look there is evidence of the flood!  Many don’t see it cause they’ve never taken the time to consider what kind of evidence a global flood would truly leave behind… or perhaps they don’t want to believe that God has the power to judge his creation.  Folks, it happened!  If the Biblical account is the hypothesis, the evidence in the world confirms it.  Science CAN be exciting when looked at it through God’s eyes.

 

fitanimals

Alright, here we go!  The number one question.  Since there are millions of species on the earth, how could all those fit on the Ark??  The answer may be much simpler than you are expecting.  Well… the Bible never says Noah took all the species on the Ark!  What does it say?  It says: take representatives of each kind with you.

You see there are lots of breeds of dogs, right? Did Noah need to take all the different breeds of dogs?  NO!  He only needed two dogs.  Did he need to take all the different types of cats or horses… NO!  He only needed two cats, two horses.  Some Christian scientists have estimated that the total number of animals (including the pairs and 7 of some) would have in no way exceeded 16,000 animals, but may have been much lower.

For fun, let’s take the 16,000 estimate and do some math!  We’ve done science, now how about some math.  Actually just to make sure I’m not lying to you let’s up our already conservative estimate to 50,000 animals – cool?

All right.  The average animal size is no larger than a sheep, most smaller – but we’ll go with the size of a sheep for our average.  According to the Bible’s numbers, the ark was a massive 3-story 500 foot long vessel.  It was not your bathtub Ark you often see with overcrowded giraffes sticking out the top.  Hey, perhaps that’s why we think the flood didn’t happen.  Anyways… the total volume of the ark would have been…1.5 million cubic feet, or able to hold about 569 railroad stock cars. 1 railroad car can hold 240 sheep.

Here’s where math comes in:

math

Let’s see, we said 50,000 as a way over-statement.  That would only fill 37% of the ark!!  37%!

Yeah, but what about the dinosaurs – aren’t they too big to fit??  Well, most weren’t large, but even the large ones were small once.

dino

Now, we could spend an entire other session on dinosaurs and the Bible – but in the end we would discover that we have no reason to doubt dinosaurs were on the ark, and either died out or were hunted down there after.   One last quick thing about dinosaurs before we get too sidetracked – dinosaurs are land animals that would have been created on day six of creation alongside humans.  There is allusion to them in Job chapter 40 and 41 (much after the flood) where it describes  creatures that don’t fit the description of any living creature today.  The word dinosaur was not invented until a couple centuries after the King James Bible came out.  They had a word though that was used quite a bit to describe large, reptilian beasts in the King James – they called them “dragons”.  And what are dragons:  large, reptilian beasts.  Again, dragon legends in every society on the planet.  Coincidence?  I think not.  All right – back on track!

So… there was PLENTY of room on the ark for all the animals (only 37% of capacity used) – and plenty left over!  Why do you suppose God had Noah build an ark bigger than necessary?  Well, Noah was a preacher of righteousness – perhaps he was hoping that others would join them.  You see the Ark is a picture of salvation.  Noah and his family had to enter through the door.  Jesus says “I am the door” – we have to enter through him to be saved!

So, next time someone says to you there is no way Noah could fit all those animals – feel free to chuckle under your breathe first, but then offer them real answers … with Christian love!  J

 

care

 

I know this has been a lot of information, but I’m doing that on purpose.  I want you to take away today that there are answers to the skeptics.  We’re gonna move a little quicker through a few more questions.  Here’s another one…

Could one man do all this?  Well, let’s clear up some confusion first.  It wasn’t one man, it was him, his wife, his 3 sons and their wives.  8 people.  Also, there is a common misunderstanding that people from ancient times were for some reason less smart than today’s man.  This is simply not true.  Even Bill Nye in his recent debate with creationist Ken Ham admitted that there is no evidence to suggest that we are “getting smarter”.  In fact, the Bible says Adam’s offspring went and built cities!  I think we get this idea that early humans were these grunting, dumb cavemen –

cavemen

*  “so easy a caveman could do it”, right?  But that’s just not what the Bible or the evidence suggests.

In fact, Noah was apparently so skilled that he and his family could engineer and build a massive vessel capable of surviving what was basically the end of the world.  A family that capable, that skilled – would surely have the forethought to also engineer what many animal caretakers use today – automatic feeding mechanisms. 

feeding

One flip of a lever and grain or seed or water or whatever they might use would flow through to multiple enclosures all at once.  Now I am in no way trying to say that their job was easy!  No, I’m sure they worked hard, all day, every day, for months – but there were possibilities available to make the care of the animals more manageable.

Also we need to realize this was not about ultimate habitat conditions.  There was no inspector that came through to make sure everything was up to code or humane.  This wasn’t about perfection, this was about survival!  What was the minimum necessary to keep these animals alive?  There is much more we could go into with this question – but I think we’ll just leave it here and know that if Noah could built the Ark, he could maintain its contents as well!

 

offtheboat

Wow, when they got off that boat after being cooped up for over a year – I’m sure they couldn’t wait to get out back into the world – but what world awaited them??  The entire face of the planet was altered and scarred.  Trees leveled, plant life minimal, new rivers, lakes, seas, canyons, rock layers, and on and on.  The earth was still reeling from the catastrophe.  Just as we experience aftershocks today after major catastrophes, I’m sure there was much ongoing volcanic and seismic activity for many, many years – possibly hundreds of years.

Actually, think about it – whenever we have a volcano go off or an earthquake today, isn’t that technically an aftershock of the flood?  A reminder that this earth was ripped apart.  Like I said – the evidence is everywhere!

One of the biggest questions about the post-flood world was how did animals like Kangaroos get to Australia??  Obviously the Bible is silent on this, it’s also silent on how Noah took care of the animals, but that doesn’t mean we can’t look at the evidence in the world today and make educated guesses about how it could have worked.

One thing we do know is that if you lower all the seas by just a few hundred feet there are land bridges that connect every continent on earth.

landbridges

Perhaps in the aftermath of the flood the seas were not at the level they are today.  Perhaps they raised their levels when the ice melted following the ice age.  If this is the case, the animals simply could have migrated anywhere in the world.  If you think this explanation is too far-fetched, then we would also expect the seas to be filled with floating debris from the destruction.  Perhaps there were miles and miles of floating uprooted trees.

If you put those massive tree rafts in motion given what we know about currents  – you get access to all continents.  These are just a couple explanations of how animals could have gotten to remote locations from the Middle East area.

treemate

People don’t ask these questions because they are authentic reasons to doubt the flood, they ask them because they’ve already decided there was no flood, and they use the questions to justify their belief.

 

geologists

Many geologists look at how processes accumulate slowly today and extrapolate those slow rates out to all of unseen history.  They see the Colorado River slowly cutting rock in the Grand Canyon and assume it always has for all of history.  They ignore the historic record that there was a worldwide flood because they do not accept the word of God as true history.

Even many Christian geologists do this.  Why?  Well, unfortunately it’s the same answer: they do not accept the word of God as true history.  It’s actually very common.  We, as Christians, often times tend to become “salad-bar Christians” picking and choosing what works for us and what doesn’t.

Why would Christians dispute God’s word on the flood in the first place?   Well, it’s the elephant in the room that I haven’t really said much about yet.  As I’ve been researching these topics I’ve found that once you start answering some questions here, they start opening up a whole slew of new questions.  There’s a reason I gave my creation/evolution talk a couple years ago before venturing into this topic.  You see, if Noah’s flood is the process that created all the fossils, rock layers, and other geologic evidence in the world – then the predominant views on evolution are incorrect.  I don’t want to jump into a bunch about evolution today, but it is connected.

How do you view the evidence from the past?  None of us were there to actually observe what happened – therefore interpretation is required.

interpret

Fossils don’t come out of the ground with nifty tags on them saying “65 million years old”, we imply that interpretation.  But we also buy it, don’t we?  We accept man’s word because we see the scientists as the authority.  But what have we done??  We’ve turned the church and God’s word into the secondary authority.  In other words we go to Sunday school for our life lessons, but to “real school” to hear the truth.  That sounds dangerous to me!  I’m not implying there is some mass conspiracy in the scientific world.  I love science.  But I think science should start with the true authority on the matter – the word of God.  When we are talking about issues that deal with the ancient past, I’d rather trust an eye-witness account that comes from a God who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow – and never lies.

 

important

All right, it all comes down to this!  In Matthew 24:37 Jesus himself says:

“As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man”.  If the flood event is a myth, then Jesus’s second coming is a myth.  Wickedness is increasing before our eyes every day.  Defending Christianity is becoming controversial.

In John 10:9 Jesus says: *  “I am the door: by me if any man enters in, he shall be saved”.  There was another door that life had to step through to be saved.  You see the Ark is a picture of salvation.

It is the single most devastating event in human history.  God wiped out all of mankind!  How horrible is this God??  BUT, the flood is also a redemptive story of God’s grace.  He gave us another chance.  He saved mankind.  It’s a baptism.  The earth was cleansed, given a new chance.  The earth will be cleansed again, but this time by fire.  Deep down people don’t like this idea of this God being able to wipe us out at whenever he pleases.  We like to feel secure.  We live in a fantasy that says old age is the key to life.  It’s not.  It’s fulfilling God’s mission for your life.  If you’re not fulfilling that mission, then watch out – judgment is coming.

Still don’t believe me about the judgment part?  How about this?  In 2nd Peter 3:3-7 it says:

socffersThe Bible predicts that in the end times, unbelievers will use creation and the flood as their justification for not believing!  Folks, we’re there.

I often hear it said: why don’t we just focus on Jesus!  Present the gospel, these topics are too divisive.  Well, let me make one more point on why this important if you’re not convinced yet.

Biblical scholars often argue that Paul was the better missionary than Peter because he saw more converts won.  But here’s the distinction:

Paul was mainly witnessing to the Jewish culture – those who had a firm foundation in the history of God.  They knew about creation, they knew about the fall, what sin means, the flood, etc.  They had the foundational elements in place – therefore he could just present Jesus’s gospel.  In contrast, Peter witnessed mostly to the Greek culture.  Those who had no roots in the God of the Bible.  As we see in the above verse, and others – he had to start them from the beginning before he could present the gospel message.  People need to know WHY they need a savior.  This applies today.  50-60 years ago, we had prayers and Bible teaching in schools.  Everyone went to Sunday school – it was taboo not to.  Now we’ve had half a century of secular humanism crammed into the culture while the church scales farther and farther back into obscurity.  50-60 years ago we lived in a Jewish culture.  Presenting the gospel was sufficient for evangelism.  The culture has changed.  We now live in Peter’s Greek culture.  We have to start from the very beginning, and if we can’t defend that part of the Bible, they won’t buy Jesus.

1st Peter 3:15 states: “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have”.  We are not called to blind faith.  Many of us are birthed in blind faith – and that’s okay, but it’s not the end goal of the Christian life.  Keep growing.  Keep learning.  The answers are out there.  The truth has been here all along!  Researching these topics has given me the confidence to stand on the unfailing truth of God’s word in my personal and professional life.

 

RECAP:

  • People have a hard time believing the gospel of Jesus because they don’t believe they can trust the Bible.
  • If we can show that the Bible is trustworthy, we have a better chance of convincing more people for Christ.
  • The flood was more than just rain; it lasted for a full year, and massively altered the face of the planet.
  • We know the flood happened because of the evidence we see in the world:  a fossil graveyard, rock layers laid down by water, plate tectonics, the ice age, and on and on.
  • We know that there was more than enough room on the Ark for all the animals, in fact it was probably less than 50% full.  Noah did not need all species on the Ark, only representatives of each KIND of animal who then could later adapt out to all the species we have today.
  • We know that if Noah and his family had the know-how to build a massive vessel, then they would also have the forethought to install automated feeding mechanisms that would help with the care of the animals.
  • There are several possibilities for the distribution of animals following the flood including land bridges or log tree mats.
  • Many geologists do not see evidence of a flood because they look at the evidence outside of the Biblical record.  They see slow geologic processes today and assume they’ve always worked slowly.  This is personal interpretation, not proof.
  • This is important because we need to realize that God’s word is trustworthy from the very first book through to the last book.  God judged his creation in Genesis and He will again in Revelation.

 

With all that said – I told you that I would create a water-tight case for the Biblical flood.  So, did I?  If statistics are right, there are some of you who are still not convinced.  Let me try one last thing for you folks!  Let’s use the scientific method!

recap

Tim to host FLOOD event to coincide with NOAH movie release

grand-canyon

During the Sunday morning worship service on March 23rd, 2014 at Sonlight Fellowship Wesleyan Church in South Bend, Indiana – Grace With Salt‘s Tim Gilleand will present a water-tight case for the Biblical flood.

How did it happen? How do we know it happened? What is the evidence? How could Noah fit all the animals?? The biggest questions answered!  Plus a look at what to expect in the Hollywood-ized version coming to theaters that week.

If you are in the Northern Indiana or Southern Michigan area, please plan to attend this free event.  RSVP on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/events/715233795162707/

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